L200 Owners Club

The Forum => Public/Initial Posting Area. => Topic started by: l200-driver on 06 January, 2016, 23:22:19 PM



Title: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 January, 2016, 23:22:19 PM
Hi,

Fairly new to troubleshooting turbos (managed to avoid these somehow up to now), but my 53 plated l200 K74 looks to have blown the turbo. Basically loss of power, black smoke, oil out of exhaust pipe. Bypassed turbo to test and basically black smoke went, and plenty of oil coming out of turbo.

I've got a refurb, although I wanted to check what caused the fault. I've had a look at the water pipes and connectors, all okay. Checked oil pipe and okay. Found gasket between turbo and exhaust manifold was shot, but that's about it. Air system looks okay, intercooler and hoses are good. I have a new cylinder head fitted as head went 18months ago and the vehicle dumped all its water (usual story). To avoid egr related issues I am blanking the egr and removing the cooler unit. The vehicle has done 112k miles. No ecu lights, all okay on that front. Injectors were returned with a head, and new water and oil pump fitted.

I'm hoping it was just the gasket that went that caused a pressure issue and the age of the unit meant the oil seals went as I can't find anything else. Does anyone else have any experience/advise/recommendations of what to check pre/post refit please?

Thanks in advance,


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 06 January, 2016, 23:32:18 PM
give the turbo shaft a wiggle see if there  is any movement thats a definate red light

did you find out the cause of your head failing? i'd keep a close eye on your cooling system, fit a temp sensor in the top rad hose and run a separate gauge in the cab, then you can see if it gets warm on the road, much cheaper than doing the job again and the standard temp gauge is useless..

turbo replacement, not really any "tricks" as far as I can think, if the downpipe bolts are ceased you can usually undo the 5 bolts holding the back of the turbo on and disconnect from the exhaust that way,

good luck


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 January, 2016, 23:49:47 PM
Just tried moving shaft, nothing excessive, but definitely plenty of oil in the turbo, it's basically been pushing the oil up into intercooler and then into engine which caused the black smoke by the looks of it.

Basically head gasket went a while back. Gave to garage to sort, they pressure tested it, said it was okay and did gasket. 2 months later, went again. Took it back, and they said actually the head wasn't any good, it got missed on testing. So they put on a new head (FOC I wasn't paying for it) and all okay for about 3 or 4 months then one day bang, black smoke, rough running, oil in exhaust. It appeared to behave on the water temp front after new head.

I will replace the vacuum pipe to the turbo as well ( I think it's 3 mm), just in case it's something like this as well.



Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 January, 2016, 23:56:42 PM
Also got oil all over the compressor end fins, obviously can't see exhaust end but I'm pretty sure I have oil leaking from here as well.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 07 January, 2016, 01:37:48 AM
change the turbo then

as for the head, the garage seems a bit sketchy to me, I suggested fitting a sepatate temp gauge cos the stock one is very slow to react and no one really knows what temp it starts to rise, cheaper than changing the head again


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 07 January, 2016, 11:31:54 AM
I'm thinking the exhaust manifold to turbo gasket blowing may have caused pressure problems which could have caused the oil seals to fail in the turbo. Other than that I'm struggling to see if I have another issue. I'll flush the engine of coolant and check the pipes etc, I've checked the air filter and intercooler, and can the oil pipe.

I will fit another tempt gauge, yes you are right I really don't want the new head going!


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 07 January, 2016, 12:24:31 PM
exhaust leak should just reduce pressure inside the turbo, not causing damage, but hey, anything is possible. turbo's dont last forever.

temp sensor adaptor -select 34mm one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alloy-Water-Temp-Temperature-Joint-Pipe-Sensor-Gauge-Radiator-Hose-Adapter-3Size-/391294520273?var=&hash=item5b1af88bd1:m:m64-xxPeTUErgel3P5ssJjQ)

temp gauge and sender (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291433414152?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=590531192202&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

a good pair of jubilees and some wire and your new temp sensor is done

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/John_Halsey/jobs/IMAG0024_zpsruo1uvnx.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/John_Halsey/media/jobs/IMAG0024_zpsruo1uvnx.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 07 January, 2016, 12:36:58 PM
or get a dual one can do oil temp too or top and bottom hose to monitor how good she is cooling

(http://files.homepagemodules.de/b561340/pictures_u6731_OmsRbJeL-thumb.jpg) (http://www.anothersite/g667p6731-.html)


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: Mad4Life on 07 January, 2016, 17:46:53 PM
Did they use new head bolts and a metal gasket . Sounds to me they didnt


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 07 January, 2016, 20:15:26 PM
Truth be told not had the head off. The bolts look new from removing rocker cover, but can't really see gasket that well.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 08 January, 2016, 06:58:55 AM
how did they do the head gasket without taking the head off

MAGIC


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 09 January, 2016, 13:48:24 PM
The head initially went a while back. The garage tried some stuff in the water to seal it, but didn't work. Then they took the head off, had it skimmed and tested, and it ran for about 3 months, then blew again. Then the garage replaced the entire head unit. So I have a new head and gasket on it. Then about 6 weeks later turbo went.

However, just cleaning up to re-assemble, and I've noticed I checked the inside of each exhaust outlets with my scope. When I put the scope into the front two exhaust outlets (by cylinder 1 and 2), nothing, deposits but okay. When I put it into the last exhaust outlet (back of engine, 3 and 4) there is a lot of oil in in the outlet by cylinder 4, and the 3 has a bit of oil in it. I'm wondering if this is part of my problem, and I may have something gone in the engine. I have not taken the cylinder head off again (yet), I'm tempted to, but I know I'll need a new gasket etc. Anyone else experienced oil at the back of exhaust outlets by cylinder 3 and 4 only?

Ta guys.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 09 January, 2016, 13:55:25 PM
personally I would  be checking all your water ways if they put that leak stop stuff in your engine mate might have a blockage somewhere thats has caused engine to overheat again


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 09 January, 2016, 19:50:02 PM
I've just drained the water, and all looks clean. Took the rear plug off the block, and red/purple/pink (my eyes aren't that good nowadays  :) )flowed freely. So it looks okay.

I've just taken off the glow plug from cylinder four, and it has an owet/oily residue on it. So does Cylinder 3. 1 and 2 have sooty residues.

I think I'm going to have to take the head off and have a look to be sure. Darn it, another flippin' gasket to buy  :'(

I'm wondering if this is what caused the turbo to go - something has gone on cylinders 3 and 4 and caused pressure problems. If anyone has any advice be appreciated, was hoping it was just the turbo but now worried I'm into a major rebuild.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: ahenson1992 on 09 January, 2016, 20:09:09 PM
Hi I'm having a similar problem by the sounds of it. Out of interest because of your turbo going is there any knocking noise coming from the engine at all?
Thanks alex


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 09 January, 2016, 21:53:51 PM
Alex,

I don't believe so - with the turbo all connected it runs rough, doesn't stall, just rubbish idle, get black smoke, and no power.

With turbo disconnected, still runs rough again, but I get white smoke instead (after about 5 minutes running time), which I presume is because the turbo is not pushing any air into the engine so it's only firing on very reduced airflow, hence not burning all the fuel.

I'm putting it all back together again tomorrow, so I will see what I get next. I'm hoping a neighbour has a compression guage and I will see how much I'm getting on each cylinder. If I still get white smoke I get  to take it all apart again  >:(


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: ahenson1992 on 09 January, 2016, 23:58:26 PM
That's a B****** for me then as means there's something seriously wrong with mine then. I get thick black smoke and next to no power. Also oil sprays every where from the turbo so not looking good. Where did you get your turbo from?


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 10 January, 2016, 03:43:24 AM
okay so loads and loads of oil does point to your turbo being gone

as for white smoke caused by no turbo, sorry your wrong, the map includes zero boost and vacuum maps, it can run with the turbo disconnected absolutely fine, no smoke nothing, and still pulls the same up to about 1.8 where the turbo picks up and you feel the boost, with no turbo its just a flat power band but thats it


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 10 January, 2016, 10:58:22 AM
Okay, thanks I will check all fuel lines and injectors (etc). Am planning to get compression test done as well on it.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: PAW5S on 10 January, 2016, 11:18:51 AM
Oil in the turbo and the associated air intake plumbing is usually from the engine crank case breather - you can run the breather into a catch tank to confirm.

For black smoke I would then check the fuel pump timing (making the assumption you've already confirmed no blockages in the air intake system)

When you say that one day, the engine went bang - did it actually go bang? Have you taken the rocker cover off to make sure everything is 'present and correct'. Have you removed the timing belt cover to make sure nothing has gone wrong in there too?



Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 10 January, 2016, 12:56:27 PM
the rocker cover breather does stick plenty of oil into the air intake and cooler  I noticed that 


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 10 January, 2016, 23:32:59 PM
Taken longer than I hoped, but breather, water, oil system to turbo all clear. Got turbo back on, primed, and all connections done up. Now out of time, so will take out injector pump relay tomorrow, crank, and see how we go.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: PAW5S on 11 January, 2016, 18:42:40 PM
Now that everything is clean, put the breather into a catch tank for your test so that you can postively confirm which is causng the problem. You can let the engine run properly (fuel pump relay connected) for this test.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 11 January, 2016, 20:03:28 PM
some people leave it in a catch can too


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 12 January, 2016, 21:40:53 PM
Silly question - got it all back together, putting water and oil in, what's the best way to disable the fuel pump for cranking - cannot find a relay or fuse diagram, and don't know where my book has gone!


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: nickburt on 12 January, 2016, 21:43:36 PM
Disconnect the fuel stop solenoid on the pump.
Obviously make the end of the wire safe as it'll have 12v on it while your cranking.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 14 January, 2016, 18:16:42 PM
Okay, story gets a little more complex. So got it all finally put back together this evening. Cranked it over as per turbo priming instructions, re-connected fuel injector, and fired it up. Let it idle. White smoke. So I spoke to the turbo people and they said let it warm up before revving the engine with the new turbo, so let it warm up, checked hoses, oil, all okay. Engine warmed up, so thought I'd rev it a little. Checked all looked good (no leaks) one final time, stood back, and it promptly stalled. Now won't restart. Cranks, but doesnt fire, as if getting on fuel.

I'm going to let it all cool down, but anyone any immediate thoughts? Never had this kind of behaviour.

Did breather test, got little bit smoke out of breather, but no real oil. By the time engine had warmed the white smoke went away, still had a little bit of smoke, but very little. Fuel tank is full. Injector *should* have been refurbed  (I paid for them to be refurbed anyway)

If anyone has any suggestions of what to check, really appreciate it. 


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 14 January, 2016, 18:47:55 PM
crack injectors and see if fuel is coming out?


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 14 January, 2016, 20:59:44 PM
Took off injector pipe on no 2 and put a little pot under, getting diesel there after a crank on key. Checked fuel filter, diesel runs out of that. Pumped fuel pump until resistance, still no joy. Guess I'll take injectors off and get them tested. Strange its like it almost fires and then doesn't. I'm pretty sure it is getting fuel.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 14 January, 2016, 21:11:43 PM
highly unlikely that injectors will stop it running..

crack all 4 get someone to watch while you turn it over it should squirt out as per firing order

if it is then check for smoke out the pipe while cranking


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: bootsie on 15 January, 2016, 00:41:00 AM

 I think you were right with first post, headgasket gone, oil leaking into cylinder 3/4 and oil being pushed into exhaust manifold etc. non starting just a symptom of worsening
 the leak.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles - now also timing issue?
Post by: l200-driver on 31 January, 2016, 13:40:33 PM
Guys,

So had a couple of weekends helping family so haven't been able to get around to this for a while.

Stripped off top belt cover, RAD out etc, and moved everything to TDC to check. Now I can't warm the engine as the mitzi guide says, as it won't fire, but I've lined up the top two mark on the cam and injection pump. At the moment the crankshaft appears about 30 degrees away from the marks on the lower cover, which seems a lot to me, suggesting something has gone wrong with the timing. When I try and start I'm getting a lot of blow back, which could be a result of my timing being completely off.

I'm planning now to check the lower belt, and I may have to strip down and move the timing because it's so far off. I'm just wondering what damage this is likely to have caused, anyone got any estimates?

Also, just a quick (and slightly silly question) - in every car I've worked on so far, I've had to use various sized drill bits to lock the shafts and flywheel in place when swapping belts/heads. But the Mitzi doesn't seem to do this, only the silent shaft sprockets. I've been through several sources, and they all say the same, I'm not missing something am I? If we don't lock up the various shafts how do we swap out the belts?

Thanks,

Si


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MuckyMitz on 31 January, 2016, 13:45:01 PM
No locking to do. Just time up on marks using ones on engine not on cover. Fit belts, tensioners etc and watch when you tension belt as it likes to throw out timing slightly.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: nickburt on 31 January, 2016, 14:05:54 PM
Timing needs to be set using the marks on the front engine cover, NOT the timing belt cover.  Pics in the gallery here (http://www.l200.org.uk/gallery/hditbelts.php).

No locking tools are needed as long as you don't rotate anything once the belt is off.  The fuel pump will, hoever, move in it's own, and you need to correct this as you fit the new belt.

Once you've fitted the bet, double check the timing marks, especially the fuel pump, as it can move a tooth without you realising it.  Then when happy, rotate the engine a couple of times to re-check the timing marks.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 31 January, 2016, 17:49:46 PM
Okay, got the Crankshaft nut off at last (blimey that was a battle and a half  ;) )

So this is the top timing marks:

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p640/simonw75/L200/L200_Upper%20timing%20marks_zpspqcmkeuo.jpg

And ooooopps, here we have the bottom marks.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p640/simonw75/L200/L200_lower%20timing%20marks_zpssjixou6l.jpg

No prizes for guessing my problems with my wagon. The belts are deflecting over 10mm each, so I'm guessing they slipped and now the two shafts are out, which is why it refuses to start. The belts look okay except a little worn in a couple of places.

I have not taken the head off yet, but anyone any ideas what I am likely to find being this far out on the timing please? I'm wondering if it's worth taking the belts off, rotating the crank and silent shaft to the correct position, fitting new belts and starting or just 'bite the bullet' and take the whole head off?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MuckyMitz on 31 January, 2016, 17:54:23 PM
If you can spin the engine over without it locking up and you cant see any broken cam caps or rockers with the rocker box off then i would fit a pair of belts after timing it up properly and see if it'll fire up before you pull the head. You'll need 'em anyhow so nothing to lose.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 31 January, 2016, 19:48:05 PM
So got the belts out and the shafts at the rights places; however, found a lot of churned up plastic in amongst the belts, anyone recognise this?

(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p640/simonw75/L200/20160131_190315_resized_zps7vfacww6.jpg)



Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: nickburt on 31 January, 2016, 21:19:36 PM
Even with the timign so far out, if it hasn't been knocking and turns freely, as said, check the rocker posts.  If anything goes, it's usually the rocker post that snap.

The bit in you last photo looks like a piece of timing cover.  Have you even had the bottom pulley de-laminate - sometimes, when they do, they knock a chunk out of the cover.

If the belt are showing any sign of wear or damage, then change them.  For what they cost, it's not worth the risk.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 31 January, 2016, 23:45:26 PM
Thanks guys. Planning to do the belts and tensioners, as the tension had pretty much gone on the belts. i shall look at the rocker posts when I get it back together. Thanks again.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 February, 2016, 15:13:20 PM
Replacing belts and tensioners, and had to advance crank 30 degrees and left sielnt shaft to put all the marks back. I'm struggling to get the left silent shaft to line up completely once the belt is on, I recall from someone saying to me that when you rotate the silent shaft you should do it so the balance means it doesn't try and rotate away from the timing mark, but memory is not what it once was :-)

Anyone got any advice on advancing the Crank/silent shaft please? Would be nice to get it back together today and see if it fires back up.

Cheers, Si.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 February, 2016, 19:13:09 PM
So this is turning out to be more like a blog than a query now!

So I've got the belts sorted and all looking good on timing. So off with the rocker cover for a check to see what's happening.

Not good.

(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p640/simonw75/L200/20160206_190331_resized_zps5lvhptte.jpg)

Head is coming off tomorrow, I suspect it will be a new head now or at minimum sorting out the valves.

I know I said to the missus I wanted a 'little project' to keep me busy.......


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: douchecalamondaes on 06 February, 2016, 21:41:51 PM
double over head cam  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 06 February, 2016, 22:45:01 PM
Quite, ha ha, hadn't thought of it like that  ;D


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 06 February, 2016, 23:05:00 PM
I bet the valves will be ok th rockers are suppose to brake so the valves dont bend or do dammage if ur lucky  ;)


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MurrayParkin on 07 February, 2016, 00:01:07 AM
when my timing belt snapped it cracked the cam shaft bearing caps and 4 rockers, this was caused by balance shaft belt having snapped and getting caught in the cam belt. I never took the head off I just replaced the caps, rockers, belts and tensioners that was 4 yrs ago and I have done 43k since then without any issues. I did have to fine tune the new bearing caps and checked that the running clearances on the caps allowed correct oil flow.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 07 February, 2016, 09:23:33 AM
MurrayParkin,

So you reckon it could be worth just replacing all the rocker shaft/caps/rockers first? I would rather not take the head off, big old job. I have just done the timing belt and tensioners.

Regards, Si


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: 123hotchef on 07 February, 2016, 09:28:09 AM
Si I would just replace the rocker gear first head is 99% of the time ok gotta be worth  try in my book


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MurrayParkin on 07 February, 2016, 09:45:17 AM
Hi Si, this was the advice given to me from other members and it did save a lot of time and money, because the valves are perpendicular in the head the valve gear tends to fail first avoiding valve/head damage.

Murray


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MurrayParkin on 07 February, 2016, 09:49:14 AM
Just one other thing to check is with all the valve gear off make sure that all the inlet and exhaust valves are at the same height, this should tell you if you have any bent valves.

Murray


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 07 February, 2016, 13:50:01 PM
Good call, and I think I will get someone to do a compression test, that way I can be as sure as I can be without taking it all apart. Thanks.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: MurrayParkin on 07 February, 2016, 14:17:13 PM
You will only be able to do a compression test after you have rebuilt it, this is because you need the inlet and exhaust valves opening and closing for a compression test to work.


Title: Re: Turbo troubles
Post by: l200-driver on 07 February, 2016, 15:47:13 PM
Murray,

Yep, plan on putting back on the cam rocker shaft and bearing caps, then see if it starts. If it does okay, if not, head off. If it does then get compression test done. If okay, all sorted (hopefully) if not, head off.

I'll order the rocker shaft assembly tomorrow from Milners.

Si