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Author Topic: 2002 L200 2.5tdi vacuum problem? Help!  (Read 9404 times)
BlackMitsi

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« on: 30 December, 2015, 18:25:20 PM »

Hi,

Am at my wits end after my truck broke down just before Christmas.

It had been running fine. Went to the cinema with my son, returned to car and whilst it would start, the idle was lumpy, it would not rev past idle and chucked out loads of black/grey smoke. The rev counter does not register at all.

The turbo has given issues before- so a friend recommended I replace it and found me a good recon unit.

After a week of wrestling with a snapped manifold to turbo stud and trying to find metric fine fasteners in between Christmas and the New Year, I got it all back together today with the new turbo and an oil and filter change. No difference :-(

I then noticed that if I pull off the vacuum hose to the turbo actuator it will rev up. Still no rev counter tho and obviously with the pipe off the arm of the turbo doesn't move. If i block the vacuum pipe that leads to the actuator hose on the rocker cover the idle becomes lumpy again.

I've traced the vacuum hoses and checked connections. The only issue I could find was a small uncovered nipple on the pipe from the n/s side of the engine to the brake. servo. I blanked this off with a small piece of hose and a self tapping screw but no difference.

Completely at a loss now. EML is on but cannot get it in to be read til after the New Year.

If anyone has any pointers in the meantime I'd be massively grateful. We drove through a ford a few hours before the probs began. It wasn't very deep and I checked the ECU in the footwell and its dry. I've tried to explain things as best I can but I am a simpleton who struggles with anything more complex than a defender tdi!
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123hotchef
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« Reply #1 on: 30 December, 2015, 18:45:37 PM »

if the eml is on then it is in limp mode take the vac line off of the throttle body and plug that and see if it makes a difference
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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #2 on: 30 December, 2015, 18:53:52 PM »

If I pull the hose of the throttle body it runs smoother and revs up, but if I plug the end of the hose pressure builds up and it falters again. Still nothing on the rev counter.
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123hotchef
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« Reply #3 on: 30 December, 2015, 19:31:40 PM »

pressure where  Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
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Blue over Silver Double Cab
K&N Apollo EGR removed S/S De-Cat Armadillo Roller Shutter Boost gauge Wax-oiled and under-sealed Interior blue LED's Roll bars
2 Led spots 2 search lights 4 work lights with red angle eyes 7" screen for trailer cams Stereo with flip down screen

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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #4 on: 30 December, 2015, 19:36:52 PM »

If I remove hose from connection at throttle body and block the end of the hose it expands with pressure and the truck fails to idle/rev. With the hose free it idles and revs okay.

Planning to swap over the throttle valve solenoids from a working set on a friends truck first thing.
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nickburt
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« Reply #5 on: 30 December, 2015, 19:43:58 PM »

Rev counter has nothing to do with vacuum system.  Revs signal comes from the fuel pump.
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« Reply #6 on: 30 December, 2015, 19:46:11 PM »

Vacuum pipe to the throttle body should be just that, a vaacuum, not pressure.  Have you had any of the rubber pipes disconnected from the metal pipes on top ofthe rocker cover and got some mixed up?
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123hotchef
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« Reply #7 on: 30 December, 2015, 20:03:19 PM »

If I remove hose from connection at throttle body and block the end of the hose it expands with pressure and the truck fails to idle/rev. With the hose free it idles and revs okay.

Planning to swap over the throttle valve solenoids from a working set on a friends truck first thing.

should not be any pressure there it should suck
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2005 4 Life
Blue over Silver Double Cab
K&N Apollo EGR removed S/S De-Cat Armadillo Roller Shutter Boost gauge Wax-oiled and under-sealed Interior blue LED's Roll bars
2 Led spots 2 search lights 4 work lights with red angle eyes 7" screen for trailer cams Stereo with flip down screen

To go on
Stainless steel exhaust
BlackMitsi

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« Reply #8 on: 30 December, 2015, 22:32:16 PM »

I will check again in the morning to ensure whether its blowing or sucking (?!!) All I can say for certain is that with the pipe disconnected from the throttle body it revs freely.

Been reading some other threads and one suggested that these symptoms could be caused by the crank sensor. This has a feed into the fuel pump... could that in turn be interrupting the rev counter if the crank sensor is faulty?

Just at a bit of a loss as to where to go next after all the graft the change the turbo.
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rodeast24
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« Reply #9 on: 31 December, 2015, 01:09:06 AM »

Have a fiddle with the wiring multi plugs going to the back of pump, as the under bonnet temps get very high on these trucks. i have found the wiring brakes down inside the multi plug. had the same problem, got in truck, started it, would not rev white smoke all over the place, and rev counter dead. Crank sensor multi plug fudged.
Hope you get it sorted.
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
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« Reply #10 on: 31 December, 2015, 09:54:17 AM »

I will check again in the morning to ensure whether its blowing or sucking (?!!) All I can say for certain is that with the pipe disconnected from the throttle body it revs freely.

Been reading some other threads and one suggested that these symptoms could be caused by the crank sensor. This has a feed into the fuel pump... could that in turn be interrupting the rev counter if the crank sensor is faulty?

Just at a bit of a loss as to where to go next after all the graft the change the turbo.

Crank sensor has nothing to do with the rev counter.  There's a pick up in the fuel pump for the rev counter.
The crank sensor signal goes to the engine ECU.  The rev counter signal goes direct from the fuel pump to the rev counter.

You say you blanked off a connection on the pipe to the servo - are you sure a pipe hasn't become disconnected and is what should be connected there?

Some pics of the pipes would help.
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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #11 on: 03 January, 2016, 15:34:44 PM »

First off I got my wires completely crossed regarding the throttle body pipe blowing- it most definitely sucks. Interestingly, with it in the correct position the truck stutters and smokes, with it off and the end temporarily blocked the truck seems to run well and the turbo arm moves as I would expect it to. See pic below...



The vacant pipe end is in the following pic. This is on the fuel pump side of the engine about level with the rocker cover. I couldn't find a anything that could have become detached from it, and blocking it made no difference to how the engine ran. (I discovered it by moving the butterfly in the throttle body and noticing a hiss).



I'm off back up to the unit to remove the battery and pull all the fuel pump connections apart. I have a spare fuel pump so hoping to find something here to prevent anymore expense. Will advise accordingly.

Thank you for the advice so far.
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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #12 on: 03 January, 2016, 16:17:05 PM »

Update. Pulled apart and cleaned all electrical connections on fuel pump. No water or damage found and no difference made.

Running truck with black pipe to throttle body blocked causes it to make a pretty awful mechanical shriek when revved. Suspected turbo vanes fouling so hastily stopped!

Not sure where to proceed except to limp to a mechanic in the morning.
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #13 on: 04 January, 2016, 00:03:39 AM »

pull air pipe off of front of turbo, put your fingers in and see if you can wiggle it if there is no play then the turbo should be fine, take some better pictures of the vac piping all around maybe we can spot a fault, there should be a bung on the outlet in that second picture for starters..
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02 4life red/silver, T-bar's,  3" bodylift,  31" MT's,  LED headlights, under bonnet & interior light mods,   K&N,   Fuel timing advance,  Reduced boost,   free wheeling hubs, triple Air horns, "cruise control",  DECAT, custom towbar, under sealed, EGR, stiff fan, boost & water gauges, CB, lockbox
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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #14 on: 04 January, 2016, 00:26:09 AM »

The turbo is brand new reconditioned. I fitted it four days ago but it didn't rectify the original fault.

I'll bung the outlet but am pretty sure that it's been like that in the 25k I've had the truck. There's plenty of vacuum.

It was running fine on the day of the breakdown on 22 dec- did a 100 mile round trip. Then it smoked like hell, wouldn't rev and I lost the rev counter. Was hoping someone might have experienced similar symptoms. There was a thread on crank sensors causing this but this has been disputed above. I don't understand why a vacuum fault would affect the rev counter otherwise I'd change solenoids.


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nickburt
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« Reply #15 on: 04 January, 2016, 11:08:54 AM »

I think you may have a fuel pump problem.

The smoking and not revving sounds like a fuel problem and given that the rev counter stopped at the same time, all point at the pump.  Worst case, ECU.

Has the EML come on at any time?  Any fault codes?

As said, the pipe in the second pic should be blanked off.  Some better pics of all the vacuum pipes might help one of us spot something not connected correctly.  You say you've just changed the turbo.  Were any of the other vacuum pipes disconnected at the same time, potentially getting mixed up when re-connecting?
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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #16 on: 04 January, 2016, 11:41:58 AM »

I think the loss of the rev counter is the key symptom. As you say, this prob points to pump, ECU or crank sensor (going on other threads).

Replacing the turbo made no difference at all. The only vac pipes that came off were the actuator and the larger pipe in the air hose circuit. Missing bung aside I'm confident that's all as it should be (or close enough to just cause poor running rather than not revving at all)

If I could get to the garage to get the codes read (tho the eml cancelled when I removed battery to check connections on pump I would. I'm worried that driving it may trash the brand new turbo.

I'm going to look at the crank sensor- for my own peace of mind and cos it's cheap. It seems that this is common weak point too. If that's all intact I'll move on to pump and ecu as in my mind there's no point working on these without confirming the key way in the crank is okay. If I'm barking up the wrong tree please let me know.
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rodeast24
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« Reply #17 on: 04 January, 2016, 12:15:26 PM »

You say that you have looked at the multi plugs on the back of the pump, mine had broken inside the plug. the plug looked fine and pins. the crank sensor wiring up to the pump harness side was my problem, wire had broken inside the multi plug rendering rev counter with no feed. truck would not rev and smoke billowing out, Got a new plug off the club solders the wires and connected it. Job done never had a problem again.
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
BlackMitsi

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« Reply #18 on: 04 January, 2016, 12:48:48 PM »

That's interesting. About a year ago the truck developed a misfire. The cable from the crank sensor to the loom connections on the pump was hanging down- still connected but bouncing about. I tied it back up it and misfire disappeared.

I wonder if wiring has cracked internally- will get the continuity meter out. Thanks for the info.
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #19 on: 04 January, 2016, 15:57:33 PM »

I can link the workshop manual pics of the pump if you like

doubt you can "wreck" a new turbo with a bad fuel pump..
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02 4life red/silver, T-bar's,  3" bodylift,  31" MT's,  LED headlights, under bonnet & interior light mods,   K&N,   Fuel timing advance,  Reduced boost,   free wheeling hubs, triple Air horns, "cruise control",  DECAT, custom towbar, under sealed, EGR, stiff fan, boost & water gauges, CB, lockbox
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley

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rodeast24
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« Reply #20 on: 04 January, 2016, 17:12:55 PM »

It was a heat related problem on mine as soon as the temp user bonnet got high the wire broke down, i tested it with a meter and was fine, i came across it when fiddling with the block connector it would miss if i moved it then it would run fine. but eventually it went altogether.   
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
123hotchef
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« Reply #21 on: 04 January, 2016, 20:46:20 PM »

i did wonder about a dodgy or braking down wire for my rev counter woes too
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2005 4 Life
Blue over Silver Double Cab
K&N Apollo EGR removed S/S De-Cat Armadillo Roller Shutter Boost gauge Wax-oiled and under-sealed Interior blue LED's Roll bars
2 Led spots 2 search lights 4 work lights with red angle eyes 7" screen for trailer cams Stereo with flip down screen

To go on
Stainless steel exhaust
BlackMitsi

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« Reply #22 on: 04 January, 2016, 21:39:52 PM »

Gonna head up first thing and have a good look in the light. I'm wondering if the wire was caught in the casing when the belts were done prior to my ownership. Got a crank sensor and plate ordered just in case too.

Will update. Once again many thanks.

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BlackMitsi

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« Reply #23 on: 05 January, 2016, 14:32:07 PM »

Right... Pulleys and casing came off pretty easily with a puller. Crank end and keyway is good. No pulley delamination either. Chopper plate is as it should be.

Removed crank sensor and pulled of insulation. Very wet and oily inside- water not coolant. Blue wire pulled out if sensor will little resistance and some damage to casing of crank sensor itself.

Awaiting delivery of new sensor but hoping that the water has caused it to short. We drove through a ford an hour before we broke down (a few times too- purely to amuse my 9 year old not me... honest!)

Running car with crank sensor unplugged made no difference before it all came apart.
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #24 on: 05 January, 2016, 14:43:32 PM »

if it ran just as poorly with crank loom unplugged then it could well be that, suprised it runs at all without that
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02 4life red/silver, T-bar's,  3" bodylift,  31" MT's,  LED headlights, under bonnet & interior light mods,   K&N,   Fuel timing advance,  Reduced boost,   free wheeling hubs, triple Air horns, "cruise control",  DECAT, custom towbar, under sealed, EGR, stiff fan, boost & water gauges, CB, lockbox
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley

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04 warrior (least reliable L200 ever)
nickburt
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« Reply #25 on: 05 January, 2016, 14:46:02 PM »

I've just had one with a failed crank sensor - it wouldn't start, let alone run.
Obvious, really, as the ECU has no idea where the crank is, so can't alter the fuel pump to suit.
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