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Author Topic: Newbie here with a smokey engine  (Read 949 times)
Gordon058

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« on: 04 September, 2018, 21:20:12 PM »

Hi guys,
I recently purchased a 2003 warrior with 180k miles on it as a bit of a project. When I bought it, it was spewing oil from every possible seal on the engine so I've replaced all sorts to try and solve it. This is where the problems started, I replaced front cam and crank seals and replaced timing belts and pump at the same time, since then she's become a smoker. Before belts changed she ran perfectly with no smoke and I've lined the timing marks up perfectly but still smokey, I've even tried advancing and retarding the injector pump one tooth each way to see if that would work but alas it didn't. Eventually I messed about with the pump itself by loosening the nuts and rotating. I managed to get the smoke to a reasonable level by turning the pump as much as it would go anticlockwise but I replaced the turbo at the weekend as that too was spewing oil and it seems smokey again so I spent tonight messing about with the injector pump again but can't seem to get the smoke to stop. To reiterate, all timing marks line up perfectly as they should and Ive tried moving the pump 1 tooth out and it didn't work.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Shottymonster
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« Reply #1 on: 05 September, 2018, 17:10:27 PM »

is it oil smoke or fuel smoke?
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #2 on: 05 September, 2018, 21:04:13 PM »

take the breather out of the intake pipe and try that first
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03 4work, Cummins 6BTA 5.9L engine, 37" round things, and all the accompanying hassle involved.
 
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley
024life
04warrior
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Gordon058

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« Reply #3 on: 05 September, 2018, 21:18:22 PM »

It's definitely fuel, it's black smoke. It's also now difficult to get it running, it fires up right away but instantly cuts out. Only after starting about 5 times does it fire into life properly!
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123hotchef
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« Reply #4 on: 05 September, 2018, 21:30:50 PM »

have u set the pre lift on the pump properly now with a dti gauge
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Gordon058

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« Reply #5 on: 06 September, 2018, 06:11:28 AM »

have u set the pre lift on the pump properly now with a dti gauge
Hi, no I don't have a gauge to set it up properly, I had read somewhere that as long as it was reasonably close to where it should be it would be OK. The problem is, the smoke started as soon as I changed the timing belts without messing about with the pump timing and now regardless of where I set the pump I can't get the smoke to stop. Ordinarily I would assume the timing belt was on wrong but its not, when I tell you I've had it off and on 10 times, I'm not exaggerating. Even had my dad's mate who's a retired mechanic come over to check it and confirmed timing marks were correct.
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Shottymonster
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« Reply #6 on: 06 September, 2018, 16:29:47 PM »

just a thought, would a crank sensor issue cause this?
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rodeast24
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« Reply #7 on: 06 September, 2018, 17:03:49 PM »

It would, mine smoked like B******y when the wires on the block going to pump broke down. and a b to find.
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
Gordon058

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« Reply #8 on: 06 September, 2018, 20:12:59 PM »

just a thought, would a crank sensor issue cause this?
I changed the sensor when I done the belts.
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Gordon058

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« Reply #9 on: 06 September, 2018, 20:19:34 PM »

I've ordered a dti guage and adapters, I'll try that when it arrives. It's frustrating to pinpoint especially since I've changed so much in such a short time. Can't work out why it's now all of a sudden so difficult to start when cold, this only started after changing the turbo at the weekend, although it may have run out of fuel because I had to Bleed the air out the diesel filter. It starts every time I start it but cuts out after a few seconds, this happens about 5 times before it fires into life.
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jimmy
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« Reply #10 on: 10 September, 2018, 19:31:28 PM »

If it's bad at starting double check that it's not drawing air in to the fuel lines and draining back to the tank it may be as simple as the filter not been tight enough
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l2004life 2002  ecoflow 161542k and climbing asifer skid plates 2" suspension lift extended shackles 1 1/2" body lift  runing on special tracks lots of lights shogun v6 front axle with arb locker  37 mm wheel spacers 295/75/16 hankook R T 03 dinapro mts Elete winch bumper with13000 winch it winch with dinema 60 2nd battery with split charge in the procces of being fitted allong with the conversion of the champion eb12000  to go on the back ome suspension
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Gordon058

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« Reply #11 on: 11 September, 2018, 09:21:29 AM »

Thanks Jimmy, deffo not loose filter, I actually took it off and replaced it yesterday just incase. Nearly ripped it in half trying to get it off. I filled it and primed it after install.
I can't figure this out at all, I got a dti guage on it yesterday and with all the engine timing marks lined up properly I can't get the injector pump in spec. The guage should read 0.97 - 1.03mm at 9 degrees ATDC however with the pump rotated all the way toward the block I could only get 0.63.
I decided to move the timing of the pump by 1 tooth at the timing belt side and in doing so was able to bring the pump into spec but alas it wouldn't start. This thing is driving me nuts, anyone got any ideas?
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rodeast24
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« Reply #12 on: 11 September, 2018, 09:43:14 AM »

Look at your wiring inside the multi plugs on the back of the pump I had a brake down in the multi plug on the crank sensor, was fine starting smoke like hell then it would not start then I would start.
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #13 on: 11 September, 2018, 13:45:04 PM »

DTI honestly not necessary,look into wiring of the bits you touched immediately before it went wrong
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03 4work, Cummins 6BTA 5.9L engine, 37" round things, and all the accompanying hassle involved.
 
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley
024life
04warrior
04 4work
Gordon058

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« Reply #14 on: 04 October, 2018, 16:39:00 PM »

So I managed to resolve the starting issue, turned out to be 2 bad glow plugs. Still smokey as hell, gonna try see if the ecu can be programmed to resolve issue.
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tinski

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« Reply #15 on: 19 October, 2018, 18:57:57 PM »

Hi,
I've been trying to join with the last week to talk to you about this. I'm in exactly the same position.
My 2004 warrior had a bad head with the last two years and the final straw was when it lost low end power and started black smoking which I assumed was the turbo.
So bought a complete new head, second hand turbo, New heater plugs, timing belts and Crank sensor, filters and an oil change.
Took it for a test drive and seemed ok then nearly back home after 3-4 miles and it died when I went to change gear.
Long story short, Thrust bearings knackered, so bad it had destroyed the new crank sensor.
Changed the thrust bearings and got a second hand crank sensor, starting and running perfect for first 2-3 minutes then develops a misfire and
smokes like hell.
Like you have had timing belt off numerous times, advanced and retarded timing, compression tested it all with no luck.
I did find that if I plug out the timing control valve on the pump it gets a harsh diesel knock but misfire and smoke disappear so mechanically there is no issue.
I tested the Timing advance piston on the side of the pump but that seemed out of spec at first but came into spec once warmed a little.

Have you had any success HuhHuh?
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Gordon058

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« Reply #16 on: 20 October, 2018, 19:28:22 PM »

Sorry, no I haven't been able to get this resolved. Guy I went to couldn't access live data from ecu so wasn't able to do anything for me. I've actually got a chance of getting my hands on a second hand engine which I might go for because it's covered a lot less miles than mine. This will be my next problem as I don't know if I need to replace the ecu and if I do does that effect the keys immobiliser etc? Who knows
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tinski

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« Reply #17 on: 21 October, 2018, 21:07:36 PM »

Yea I've been quoted 250 for a used injector pump, could also be ecu, For now I'm going to try another new crank sensor and reluctor plate.
Have you checked the bottom pulley for movement. Mine seems pretty good but the key way in the bottom timing belt sprocket has a very small amount of play.
I don't think it would be enough to cause an issue and pretty sure it clamps up tight when the crank pulley is torqued up.

I think the fly by wire unit on the pump is coded to the ecu anyway so you would probably just need to retain that as long as your ecu is good.

These engines are cheese so I would grab the second one anyway if I were you, Mine is on its second and well looked after, I have the original, that spun a big end bearing.
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mikeinatruck
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« Reply #18 on: 22 October, 2018, 18:45:28 PM »

First off I have a good engine if anyone needs one minus the turbo...

You dont need to change the ecu if you change engines. If you change ecu then you need immobilser ecu, and ignition as they are all linked.

If the ecu fails the big sign is the rev counter stops working.
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2003 Oriental Burgundy/silver
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Gordon058

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« Reply #19 on: 22 October, 2018, 19:20:40 PM »

First off I have a good engine if anyone needs one minus the turbo...

You dont need to change the ecu if you change engines. If you change ecu then you need immobilser ecu, and ignition as they are all linked.

If the ecu fails the big sign is the rev counter stops working.

Thank god because I got an engine but didn't ask for ecu as I didn't think it would be required
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Gordon058

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« Reply #20 on: 22 October, 2018, 19:25:37 PM »

Yea I've been quoted 250 for a used injector pump, could also be ecu, For now I'm going to try another new crank sensor and reluctor plate.
Have you checked the bottom pulley for movement. Mine seems pretty good but the key way in the bottom timing belt sprocket has a very small amount of play.
I don't think it would be enough to cause an issue and pretty sure it clamps up tight when the crank pulley is torqued up.

I think the fly by wire unit on the pump is coded to the ecu anyway so you would probably just need to retain that as long as your ecu is good.

These engines are cheese so I would grab the second one anyway if I were you, Mine is on its second and well looked after, I have the original, that spun a big end bearing.

I picked up a complete engine with all ancillaries and turbo for 200. Its covered 118k. Complete and utter gamble, head gasket had gone and it was out the car already but like you say you will pay 250 for a pump so worth a punt.

The keyway on my crank had a massive amount of play and it is heavily scored and marred. It has definitely spun a pulley or something at some point in the past.
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #21 on: 23 October, 2018, 22:15:33 PM »

if your having smoke when cold but not when hot advance the pump,

having it knocking when cold and normal when hot is perfectly fine,

ecu faliure will bring up fault codes and do plenty of fun stuff, much more likely is a problem with crank sensor, or crank sensor wiring harness if you have already tried changing injection pump
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03 4work, Cummins 6BTA 5.9L engine, 37" round things, and all the accompanying hassle involved.
 
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley
024life
04warrior
04 4work
tinski

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« Reply #22 on: 01 November, 2018, 20:24:10 PM »

if your having smoke when cold but not when hot advance the pump,

having it knocking when cold and normal when hot is perfectly fine,

ecu faliure will bring up fault codes and do plenty of fun stuff, much more likely is a problem with crank sensor, or crank sensor wiring harness if you have already tried changing injection pump

I have just put another new crank sensor and reluctor plate in with zero improvement. I'm torn now between forking out for an injector pump or whether I need an ecu.
I had it running yesterday with the timing control valve, fly by wire throttle and the timing piston advance all unplugged, runs the same. Actually better with timing control valve
plugged out. Will eventually put up engine light with all those disconnected but not with when everything is connected, Just misfires and smokes like hell.
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Gordon058

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« Reply #23 on: 04 November, 2018, 16:50:57 PM »

Bummer that your not getting to bottom of your problem tinski. It does sound like it could be electrical.
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Gordon058

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« Reply #24 on: 04 November, 2018, 16:55:59 PM »

Does anyone know if it is easy enough to remove the engine on its own without taking the gearbox out as well?
It can obviously be done as the engine I bought was removed and the box was still in the truck. Only thing is the guy had cut most of the front of the truck of, clearly I don't want to do that.
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Shottymonster
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« Reply #25 on: 04 November, 2018, 17:05:55 PM »

you have to unbolt the engine from the gearbox at the bell housing and then it will come out through the bonnet hole then.

although i think you have a loom/injection pump issue and not an engine component issue personaly.

if you say you have an engine with all the bits, i would swap the pumps first before ripping the engine out.
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Gordon058

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« Reply #26 on: 04 November, 2018, 18:58:33 PM »

Thanks Shottymonster, I agree, the issue isn't with the block or head however my engine has done 180k and the replacement has done 118k that's why I've decided just to replace the whole unit.
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rodeast24
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« Reply #27 on: 05 November, 2018, 11:19:32 AM »

people assume a low milage engine has to be better than a high milage unit, not necessarily I have seen plenty of low milage units stuffed with no service history, only used twice a week all there life and alway run cold where most wear occurs, I would spend a little time looking for wiring issues multiple brakes and the like. I nearly mined my engine once over the same fault and it turned out to be a broken wire inside the pump multi plug connected sometimes and then when hot broke down. 
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
Gordon058

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« Reply #28 on: 05 November, 2018, 16:56:30 PM »

I couldn't agree more, my engine has a FSH  however I've never seen an engine leaking as much oil as mine does and this is despite changing both crank seals, cam seal, rocker cover gasket, half moon and oil pump o ring. Plus the crankshaft has huge play in the keyway and has clearly spun a pulley at some point as its heavily scored and marred so all things considered the replacement seems like a better option to me.
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rodeast24
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« Reply #29 on: 05 November, 2018, 19:22:58 PM »

All you have mentioned are known faults on the classic, in my opinion when people replace the gaskets and half moons the trick hear is to keep the parts clean and put a good heat resistant silicon lightly on all gaskets, to take up the natural distortion witch occurs due to the bad design in the casings, once something comes apart the faces will distort and never return to factory.heat and cooling on a repetitive basis will distort anything. Many people have changed them and done a good clean job of it, but yet within a few miles the Leaks reoccur, stoning the faces helps a lot. using pattern gaskets is a big no no in my book, always genuine with seals patern parts will always be inferior that's why there cheap. pay a little extra and do it once. Do a compression test wet and dry on both engines to see the health of them, then make a call.     
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
tinski

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« Reply #30 on: 06 November, 2018, 16:53:46 PM »

I forked out for a used Injector pump this morning, No improvement, Exactly the same as before.
I checked continuity though all the connectors and went through all the vacuum pipes again with no fault found.
I went and put a few miles on it and worked it up some hills and the smoke did clear but still running rough.
I guess the next step for me is an ecu, Will let you know if I solve anything,
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douchecalamondaes
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« Reply #31 on: 06 November, 2018, 21:52:05 PM »

find someone local to swap parts with is the cheaepst quickest way
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03 4work, Cummins 6BTA 5.9L engine, 37" round things, and all the accompanying hassle involved.
 
No, my rear windows dont go up either Smiley
024life
04warrior
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rodeast24
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« Reply #32 on: 07 November, 2018, 00:06:49 AM »

Just to add,, the problem I came across was inside the multi plug on the back of the pump, it plagued me for two years, used to run fine then the next min smoke, would not rev, lost rev counter, I was bugged if I could find it. did it on the M4 one day lost all revs, and while I was at my wits end looking in under the bonnet I just happened to touch the multi plug and hay presto I found the little bas---d running like a good one, touched it again and smoke all over the place. that's when I realised electrical.. I had tested and tested the wiring for years never found it, would do 100 miles with no problem then the heat would expand the multi plug and and run like a dog.. moral here is some wiring problem are just a b to find,, go back over the wiring and move it while testing you just might find it..
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Warrior 2004 Silver
Fullbox, decat, egr blanked, powerchip, Mac wheels 285/60/18 coopers.Sport grill, twin headlights. 124K, New engine at 102K.
Landrover 90 and discovery td5, also 1958 series 2.. I do love my landys,
Volvo 850R, nissan 300zx twin turbo, Been ordered by a higher athority no more toys.
tinski

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« Reply #33 on: 07 November, 2018, 18:58:53 PM »

Finally had a break through today. I put 30 miles on the jeep this morning but noticed it felt as if the injector timing was retarded.
Bit gutless and turned over a bit too long before starting. No smoke when driving but lumpy and missing on idle.

When I fitted the replacement injector pump yesterday I set it around mid position and the jeep ran exactly as it had been so today I
tried moving it to fully advanced (top towards the block) and hey presto, smooth idle and starts straight up.

When I tried this with the old pump it made no improvement so either it was worn out of spec or unable to correct its self electronically.
It will still need a little fetaling to be 100% , mild hunting occasionally but barely noticeable.

Hope this helps someone out and is the end of this saga for me.
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